บันทึกการสนทนา ระหว่าง ท่านอาจารย์สุจินต์ และ คุณ Tam Bach [Conversation with Ajahn Feb 02 2023]
[บันทึกไว้เป็นประวัติในการสืบค้นข้อมูล]
บทสนทนาระหว่าง ท่านอาจารย์สุจินต์ บริหารวนเขตต์ กับ คุณ Tam Bach คุณ Tran Thanh Mai จาก บ้านธัมมะเวียดนาม ระหว่างการรับประทานอาหารกลางวัน ที่ มศพ. เมื่อครั้งการสนทนาธรรม กับ DSG. เมื่อวันที่ ๒ กุมภาพันธ์ พุทธศักราช ๒๕๖๖
(ภาพเมื่อวันที่ ๔ กุมภาพันธ์ พุทธศักราช ๒๕๖๖ จากซ้าย คุณ Tran Van Thai คุณ Nguyen Thanh Tam คุณ Tam Bach คุณ Tran Thanh Mai และ คุณ Tran Thi Hai)
"..Khun Tam Bach transcribed the audio recording of Achaan's sharing about her Dhamma research from the early days, at Achaan Neab's meditation center and afterward, the record that we took during a lunch in Bangkok last year. That is also a valuable document, Achaan has read and accepted that record. However, Achaan said to use that information if it is beneficial for understanding the Dhamma, that's why Khun Tam Bach is still keeping this record without knowing what to do with it :) .." (Tran Than Mai : March 2024)
Conversation at lunch with Ajahn Feb 02 2023
Fri, Feb 03, 2023 10:44PM • 56:01
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
ajahn, understanding, dhamma, monk, citta, understand, realise, moment, taught, teacher, word, sati, buddha, object, truth, khun, teaching, meditation, ignorance, experiences
SPEAKERS
Tam Bach, Mai Tran, Achaan
Achaan 00:00
I started in December. And by the end of the year – in Thailand, the last month is March, and New Year is April. So, by the end of March, after I studied, I went straight to the meditation centre and I thought that it's time to get away from family, friends, telephone and whatever you have at home. So, I stayed there. I went on Thursday to the meditation centre and the teacher, Ajahn Naeb, usually visited those who practiced. so she went sometimes in the morning and sometimes in the evening asking about the wellfare and so on. And on Monday, when Ajahn Naeb came to see me I told her my understanding and since then she never talked about Dhamma with me again. So, I just lived on my own but I till think that is good not having sisters or brothers or friends, for a month each year. Finally, I realised it is not the way because it's not natural life, otherwise how can there be the understanding of the normal life as not self, if one has the idea of sometimes needs to be alone, even that is wrong, From then on I didn't go to the meditation centre. And my last meditation center is Ajahn Naeab's Pattaya's center, Boonkanjaranam. And what is the result? All Ajahn Naeb's home dislike me so much. ... ,
Ajahn Naeb asked me to teach after I studied with her a few months and I went everywhere with her, in Autthaya and so on. Sometimes she just sent me alone, I had to sit on the train and then on the bikes and walk along the rivers and on the wood to one place alone, with friends in Autthaya by then at that time, she sent me to somewhere in Autthaya, it didn't matter at all, as long as it's for Dhamma. So my teacher, she knew that I can do what I can do, that’s why she sent me ... And we have established two (classes), one is for discover or learn more about Tipitaka, and the other for whatever. I taught them for one year or more, but what I taught is different, that's why by then many people got uneasy. So at the end it's quite different because I thought that I better taught about the truth while my teacher is still alive. Otherwise it would be not so good If people think that I changed after my teacher died. So I taught about driving and living in life as normal and so on. By then it's quite different from what she taught so I left. But the people who listened to me would like me to teach so they tried to have class on Abhidhamma. So the monk in Wat Mahathat invited me to teach. So I taught at wat Mahathat for about seventeen years
But I had a programme which is on the radio. And the monk, someone said to him I better have only five days a week, not including Saturday and Sunday, but I would like them to have all seven days, but the monk disagreed, so I left. And people still would like me to teach so they connect with the monk at ... and the monk invited me to teach there. The same because the monk and the words of the Buddha ... , he was the chief monk, but the other monks seemed like they were not pleased at all, so by the end, after about 20 years, I left.
Tam Bach 06:20
20 years
Achaan 06:23
That's why people just looked for the teacher and they really wanted to see me, so ok we'd better set the foundation so I don't, I didn't mind at all who would do anything about it. I still went to see my teacher every week and when she was ill, I went to see her and talk just a little bit about what is at there at that time didn't agree with the teachings that she taught about the citta and so on. And my teacher seemed to understand but in her words by herself she said that she had realised the second stage
Tam Bach 07:56
When Nina and Jonathan met you, was there the foundation at that time already?
Achaan 08:03
I don't remember, may be khun Dun Duon can remember The place was at my home until my father died and have the house rented and then I went to stay with khun Sujit from then on. Until I sold my house, but I bought another one at the Ayuthaya wellness
Tam Bach 09:14
So I think you said earlier that when your teacher went to see you at the meditation centre, and you told her about your understanding. And after that she'd never
Achaan 09:26
Didn't talk about the Teaching, just asked me how are you and so on every time not as ...
Tam Bach 09:36
So you think what did happen? What happened?
Achaan 09:41
What do you mean?
Tam Bach 09:42
Yes, like, why after that she never talked to you about the dhamma?
Achaan 09:47
what I said to her
Mai Tran 09:48
Ajahn, at the beginning when you read seeing just sees, how was your feeling about that? at the beginning the first time you read on a book or you just heard from the teacher that seeing is not self, just sees, it's function is to see, so how you're feeling about this first time?
Achaan 10:33
Only understand what the Buddha said, deeper and deeper. Not just how many cittas are there, how many cetasikas are there ...
Mai Tran 10:45
But all this impressed you at the beginning, right on the beginning?
Achaan 10:50
Beginning just understand.
Tam Bach 12:03
I think there's a lot of Abhidhamma teachers but no one taught about visible object as just what is seen, not people or things. I think that is certainly true but no one says that.
Achaan 12:37
Because each word is there so deep, but they just pass on, for example, what is seen for them it's just what is seen, but in truth, what it is, deeper than that.
Tam Bach 12:49
Yes because there's no such consideration no understanding of that deep truth, although they learn the Abhidhamma or even teach the Abhidhamma but they still think that seeing something disappearing is realising the rising and falling away.
Achaan 13:20
It means that they do not realise the truth, that's why they think in terms of the word that which sees and so on, but what about just the difference between the sense door and the mind door? one could say it follows, ok it follows, but when it appears, what more ... ?
Mai Tran 14:24
So now in Thailand, Ajahn is the only one to teach Dhamma in the way of no practice?
Achaan 14:33
The teachers at the ... teaching the same
Tam Bach 14:45
But they all have learnt from you. They learnt through your understanding of the Buddha's teaching
Achaan 14:51
Because it's beyond beyond the word, the truth is there, but they can not get through it
Mai Tran 15:25
Many years ago when you started teaching in your way, did you have any trouble with other Ajahns, because it's totally opposite their way
Achaan 15:37
So many but I didn't mind at all, I just ignored
Tam Bach 15:44
Because you know what is true
Achaan 15:47
I just teach about the truth, it depends on the listener to understand it or not.
Mai Tran 16:26
So for us not enough words for us to express our gratitude and also we also express our gratitude to Ajahn Dunduon because she can do very big donation to the foundation that's why people can come to listen
Achaan 16:47
She listened to other teaches before, but then after she heard the truth ...
Tam Bach 16:55
She also has the accumulation
Achaan 17:34
Thinking about the situation, my teacher said you can have satipatthana at moment of driving and I said anytime anywhere
Tam Bach 17:44
is the way that Boonkanjaranam center teaches about dukkha the same way that Ajahn Naeb taught about dukkha?
Achaan 18:05
All Ajahn Naeb teachers.
Tam Bach 18:07
okay
Achaan 18:08
no matter Boonkanjaranam teaches, Ajahn Naeb's meditation center, and khun Robert was there once
Tam Bach 18:21
I went there for maybe 10 days or something like that, a long time ago: dukha with the change of posture.
Achaan 18:56
Ajahn Naeb followed her teacher, the Burmese monk, so all practices came from the Burmese monk.
Mai Tran 19:17
But it's very difficult for me to imagine that the one who understands dhamma, understand the reality and have experience directly about them and why they still have the idea that you have to practice to catch the dhamma.
Achaan 19:34
Impossible, (from) the Burmese monk
Tam Bach 19:40
I think because when you read from the book about Ajahn Naeb, it is said that when she was still a lay person, when she was still at home, she listened to the rain dropping or the water dropping and she suddenly understood that it was just sound experienced, no one there. But at that time she hadn't read the Buddha's teaching. So, how is it possible? There had to be the the learning about the Buddhist teaching before
Achaan 20:25
Only thinking
Mai Tran 20:27
She was pouring water into a cup and then at that time she just sees only the seeing sees, no one sees. I read from the book
Tam Bach 20:27
Only thinking yes, I think everything needs to be consistent with the truth
Achaan 21:04
How can it be true, because, inside out, what is there? The world of light is the world of the succession of many many seeing moments, that includes the mind door processes, more than just sense doors. So when it appears, it's not as we take it as "such a moment such a moment, I experienced the arising and falling away". Many people have such an idea now today, they thought that they had experience it ...
Mai Tran 21:52
It happens especially for those who practice a lot
Tam Bach 22:05
Khun Ann from Canada, she told us that before meeting Ajahn, she went to Sri Lanka to practice and at some point the teacher told her that she already reached Sotapattimagga, but she had some doubt
Achaan 22:31
That's what she told me, Alan Driver, ... people have different experiences by the idea from practice. So now the sound is gone before they realise that
Tam Bach 22:50
Yes, so that's the reason why Ajahn always stresses on what level is understanding now
Achaan 23:02
As long as there's that idea that you have to be in proper place only, like meditation center. Buddha didn't say that at all, impossible. He said anytime, anywhere, any object
Tam Bach 23:39
I think what you point out is so obvious. There's no meditation center at the Buddha's time it's just so obvious, because if it was something necessary the Buddha would set up
Achaan 24:00
And the sitting posture, impossible
Tam Bach 24:02
All enlightened people they got enlightened in different manners, different postures
Achaan 24:11
Naturally. And thinking about before becoming a sotapana, how much accumulation of ignorance and attachment, more than thousands eons ago and so on. And it has to never to arise at any time. That's why it has to be so natural, otherwise what can eliminate the idea of wishing secretly, to try to do just a little bit. Only Panna knows that it's wrong, and it agrees with each word of the Buddha: anytime any place, any object. And agree with the vipassana nana and parinna, there can never be parinna before vipassana nana How come to be such moment like experiencing the arising and falling away Buddha taught different degrees of understanding. Intellectual understanding not enough so how come? just assume an idea, attach to wrong understanding, unknowingly that it's there, wrong understanding with ignorance and attachment
Tam Bach 25:45
So, Ajahn, you just mentioned about the Parinna, Parinna is the knowledge that applies what has been understood before so to make that understanding more perfect
Achaan 25:58
Otherwise what about letting go
Tam Bach 26:02
Because once is not enough
Achaan 26:04
Never. Even Sotapana not enough, has to develop on and on.
Mai Tran 26:19
Ajahn, if there's no direct experience about what you teach, it's very easy to have doubt about the way
Achaan 26:27
They don't understand sati, they take the moment of one pointedness as sati. That's why even the word they don't know the difference between samadhi and sati, especially when it's samma sati of the Eightfold Path, it can not arise without right understanding, and it's not the word, right now, it's not the word that is that's which is seen, because it realizes the nature of that, that's a reality
Mai Tran 27:32
Before I came here before the discussion in Hoian, I listened about a case that one of our dhamma friends who's listened to Ajahn for 7 or 8 years already. Before she praised and very happy and convinced by your teaching and then right after the discussion I heard that she doubt about the way, she said just sitting and talking about dhamma for two or three hours is useless, so it makes me think a lot about how it can happen to me one day because the way is very difficult. The way to be developped is very difficult, we can believe one day and then the other day we have doubt and we come to the wrong way very easily
Achaan 28:36
Because we dream about vipassana nana but what about the understanding
Tam Bach 28:43
Even intellectual understanding can become very firm because it's sure
Achaan 28:47
That's it. You know that, what is there now, the same moment as having heard no teaching at all ... or what is there, even attention to the object is not there, when the intellectual understanding is not strong enough, so natural the way it is so subtle and it has to be by conditions anytime taking a bath or touching ... only six door ways are there
Mai Tran 29:32
when i see her case i feel confused, oh it could happen to me someday
Achaan 29:42
Attachment is there, ignorance is there
Tam Bach 30:01
But for sure that before reaching sotapana magga we might still go astray.
Achaan 30:14
Because is not completely eradicated. In different manners, the lobha is there, condition such and such ...
Tam Bach 30:25
No need to to think about that, what will happen we don't know
Achaan 30:42
To let go, just to let go
Mai Tran 30:50
How long and how hard the way
Achaan 30:53
That's why it's so subtle, the four noble truth, including the first just understand intellectually, wisely and firmly, that's the way.
Mai Tran 31:21
Yes there's no other way
Tam Bach 31:40
When we consider that even the moment of doubt it conforms to the Teaching, it's there, it's gone, no one there
Achaan 31:51
And right understanding has to let go the clinging to that as "I doubt" for sure. Five khandhas, so don't dream about the result. Just this life, how much understanding, otherwise one underestimates the virtues of the Buddha, the great virtues. How long he had developed paramis, all kinds of parami so great before he came to realize the truth and this is the way to respect to the truth.
Mai Tran 32:50
Ajahn, why when you talk about the monks, you stress very much on keeping the Vinaya, but about the lay people and the precepts, it’s not the same
Achaan 33:23
Samadiyami – it's one own intention that I will do, I will not kill, I will not steal, not any rule, it's one's own.
Tam Bach 34:07
Do you mean that for the lay peopke, the precepts are training rule, but for the monks it's different
Achaan 34:23
They have intention to become a monk, to follow the paths by way of being a monk, left home ... , the way of lay people's life, no more ... no one forced him to do that, it's his own intention to be a monk. So he has to follow the way, otherwise be lay people to be truthful to the truth.
Tam Bach 34:54
And also you might think that Protecting the Vinaya is also protecting the Dhamma?
Achaan 35:06
We have to understand that without understanding it's not sila, it's not bhavana, ... it's not monk
Tam Bach 35:28
Before I used to be also very sensitive about my friends drinking or something like that, but now I understand more that it has a lot to do with my own attachment
Achaan 35:38
And, can you do anything about it ... When it's not firm understanding of what is meant by dhamma, see. So the understanding of dhamma will lead to Arahattaship, all are dhammas. Everything is for understanding, even sila, or Vinaya or monks and so on. So, it's not just to do or to follow it without understanding, no matter how many rules you would like to keep.
Tam Bach 36:50
I think we as students, although we understand that understanding is the key, but because the understanding is not enough, it's not as firm. So that's why it's so helpful when we have discussions with you, you help us to understand more and more that only understanding can…
Achaan 37:13
It has to be one's own understanding. It's just the process of mind door and sense door, there can be the very firm confidence of the ... , and even the word "direct awareness" with understanding, there must be firmer and firmer, with confidence of the truth. Now it means that even sati when it's not sati of satipatthana, it's not aware, but when it's satipatthana, it begins, just begins to attend to the characteristics first, If the right understanding is not strong enough, it cannot be moment of satipatthana, but just have something in mind to understand that this has to be known no matter what is there, until the moment of the beginning of direct awareness is there, very weak understanding in the beginning, because it's there so natural every day, and right understanding begins to study it. And without the firm intellectual understanding, how can it be enough to condition the understanding of the object, that's why sati has to be developed on and on, from being very weak, until firmer, until it's so natural. And when it's natural, it let go of the idea of there can be realization soon, so far away, farther and farther, and that's the way to let go. It's impossible to do like: "in this life I will". In this life, understanding is how much, to continue on, not to go wrong.
Tam Bach 39:52
Understanding can see that even if understanding is there, once it falls away, it's gone. The accumulations of ignorance is much much stronger
Achaan 40:07
That's why, before the first vipassana nana, there can not be higher vipassana nana. And the people who didn't have firm understanding usually say, it's very very quick I cannot be aware. For that person is there condition for awareness ... ?
Mai Tran 41:47
Sometimes you say that moment of seeing sees visible object which is tiny tiny tiny, then what about a sound? how can you describe, is it tiny also?
Achaan 42:02
Exactly the same, but the object is different.
Mai Tran 42:08
But the sound is very weak?
Achaan 42:10
Otherwise how can there be a moment of understanding the word, because now it seems like you hear the word, not the sound. How come the word in between the sound to be known? And that is moment of thinking, and that's a moment of doubt, that's moment of attachment, one is trapped all the time. Because in truth, even just the characteristic of nama does not appear as it is to be known exactly that what and when is a moment of understanding the nama as it is. We say nama all the time, but when and what can it be known as it is, when and what and how it appears as it is. Even it's there all the time, and when it appears, remember: what appears is that which experiences an object. So now, is that which experiences the object? it has to be very precise to understand the truth of the Teaching about that which can not be taken for world or things or people, because it's no one there ... It can not be anyone because it has to appear just one reality, how can it be people, even the visible object ... just understand and the moment of understanding only is the path leading to the Eightfold Path ...
Mai Tran 45:10
After this life when we will have an opportunity to listen again these words?
Achaan 45:16
Just to understand the truth, but the truth is now but it's not understood as it is, not enough condition. So everything has to be very very anatta, unexpected because you know how much understanding is now ... just to understand when time comes.
Mai Tran 45:48
There's a book ...
the questions to Mihinda, you know that book right?
Mai Tran 46:31
You rarely mentioned about it
Achaan 46:35
Tipitaka is enough to mention
Tam Bach 46:45
So, in Thai in Thailand it's not considered part of the Tipitaka - The questions to Mihinda?
Achaan 46:53
Just the book after the council of the monks, around 500 years, that's all right, but what about the citta ... further more details and deep.
Tam Bach 47:19
It's before the Visudhimagga or after the Visudhimagga?
Achaan 47:25
Visudhimagga is after, because it's 1000 years. And that is around 500 years
Tam Bach 47:41
Okay, all right. I think books like the Vibhanga or Dhammasangani is not easy to read at all.
Achaan 47:59
All depends on understanding how deep it is. Same word everywhere, but how much understanding of each word. For example, citta and cetasikas, the realities which experience the object, but citta is the chief, or the citta is the master which lead to whatever from moment to moment, that's why understand the difference, the citta has nothing to do like cetasikas at all, but it experiences only clearly at any moment. Clearly this, clearly this. And cetasikas has its function and its characteristics, but not as citta. That's why without understanding the characteristic of citta there cannot be cittanupassana satipatthana.
Tam Bach 49:05
You are also the only one that teaches that citanupassana means understanding of the characteristics of the chief of experiencing.
Achaan 49:17
because the characteristic which experiences an object has to be known. You see that we can know the moment when we like or hate, but the citta which is everywhere every moment is not known. And if there's still doubt about it, How can it be understanding reality as no self. Every word, passage is very deep and very clear meaning of each one. Otherwise we learn the word from the book and not enough considering, that citta is not cetasikas, and there are 52 cetasikas and so on. But at this moment no time to think about any cetasika, see! Even the reality which experiences the object is not known, only that which is experienced is known. So, how much it has to work on and on to understand the truth, to be truthful to the understanding because right understanding is so very truthful, it knows how much understanding, whether there's doubt, whether ...
Tam Bach 50:46
We never appreciate enough how important to consider each word
Achaan 51:04
To consider each word
Tam Bach 51:08
When we first heard that, yes, we thought we got it. But the more we listen the more we realize the depth of it.
Achaan 51:17
Deeper and deeper and deeper, a little bit, a little bit.
Mai Tran 51:25
Some people say that they are full of words, because they don't get the characteristic of what you are mentioning, what they get are just words. So they feel full of words and get tired
Achaan 51:45
And when the question is there, they just think about what to answer, not understanding. See, how many moments of ignorance all the time and we think about realizing the truth, is it the understanding which let go of ignorance? Thinking of letting go instead of trying to experience something. As long as it's not let go enough how can it appear as it is, it's covered by all the ignorance
Mai Tran 52:33
So Ajahn, it is very ver beneficial
Achaan 52:38
And I think that now the Vietnamese know a lot, understand a lot, progress.
Mai Tran 52:45
Respect to Ajahn
Tam Bach 52:48
So much gratitude
Achaan 52:51
To the Triples Gems, and good friend. And the first thing to appreciate is to understand, not other things at all, because it's so very, very deep and difficult. It's against the current of the world of ignorance and attachment.
Tam Bach 53:17
And I think that some students, they feel that they are full of words, because somehow at some point, they think that what is to do is to listen a lot. So they just do it and it's not out of the interest. So if they just think that they have to listen but there's no conditions for understanding, they feel it's all the time the same
Mai Tran 53:50
There is a quite famous monk in Vietnam, he used to study in Thailand for about 10 years, and he said that in Thailand there are two ways of explanation about accumulation. And he mentioned that Achaan Sujin explain that accumulation is accumulated at each citta Along with citta but the other way is different
Achaan 54:32
What is the difference?
Mai Tran 54:35
I don't remember exactly what he said but it is not accumulated by each citta
Achaan 54:40
Because we see that we think in terms of "I understand". But in truth no I. So we have to understand each different reality, see. Accummulation of considering wisely to understand the word like “that which experiences an object”, no shape no form, no smell no taste at all, no calm at that very moment. Just understand! And when there's hearing without considering there cannot be any understanding. So understanding is moment of hearing, considering or even it's not moment of hearing, it can condition moment of thinking and consider, sutta-maya-panna, cinta-maya-panna, bhavana-maya-panna, just for the sake of understanding only.